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美国网民热议:要不是我们,中国人早说日语了?


译者:unknown     发布时间:2017-01-17     超过 0 位网友阅读

有个中国笑话是这样说的,如果日本在二战的时候占领了整个中国,那么日本人现在都在说中文了

原文地址:https://www.quora.com/Do-Americans-ever-tell-Chinese-people-If-it-wasnt-for-us-youd-be-speaking-Japanese/answer/Yuqi-Yang-2


"If it wasn't for us you'd be speaking German" is/has often been said to British people (and possibly other Europeans) on a regular basis.

“要不是我们,你们早说德语了。”这句话(曾)常常?#32654;?#23450;期?#26434;?#22269;人(?#37096;?#33021;是其他?#20998;?#20154;)说(chao feng)。

中国人早说日语

Note: to those who came late to this question and haven't realized it was asked with good natured light hearted intention. No need to get hot and bothered.

注意:保持冷静,不要撕逼!(译者:不要这样!我要看老外撕逼!(?ω?) )




Yuqi Yang
Written May 21 2015
Here's a Chinese joke: if Japan ever took the whole China in WWII Japanese people would be speaking Chinese now.

有个中国笑话是这样说的,如果日本在二战的时候占领了整个中国,那么日本人现在都在说中文了。

In history China was conquered by foreign army twice the first time was by the Mongolians and the second time was by Manchurians. Results are Kublai Khan used Chinese in official documents and Manchurian people now are totally assimilated by Han Chinese and their own language was on the brink of extinction.

历史上中国被异族征服过两次,一是蒙古二是满清。结果忽必烈把中文定为官方语言,满族人也完全被汉族同化了,他们的语言现在正处于消失的边缘。



Andy Lee Chaisiri93 votes Show
>>Here's a Chinese joke: if Japan ever took the whole China in WWII Japanese people would be speaking Chinese now.

引用》》有个中国笑话是这样说的,如果日本在二战的时候占领了整个中国,那么日本人现在都在说中文了。

Rather humorously Hitler actually made a similar statement paraphrasing his East Asia adviser when he was told that Japan was invading China:

好笑的是当希特勒的东亚顾问告诉他日本正在入侵中国的时候,他也作了一个类似的表述

 "the Japanese would win the war but that in the long run they'd be absorbed by the Chinese"

这场战争日本会赢,但长?#32654;?#30475;他们会被中国人同化



Uri Granta73 votes Show
Interestingly the same was true of the central Asian conquerors of India (the Delhi sultanate the Mughals) but not of the British where the ruling class stayed distinct throughout the Raj. Modern imperialism seems to be much more resistant to assimilation than was historically the case. Fortunately we never found out what would have happened in the case of China and Japan.

有趣的是,?#26434;?#20013;亚印度的征服者来说也是如此(莫卧儿王朝),但英国人不是,在整个英国?#25345;?#21360;度的时期,?#25345;?#38454;级?#20013;?#20998;化。现代帝国主义与历史上的相?#20154;?#20046;更能抵抗同化。幸?#35828;?#26159;,我们?#29615;?#29616;中日之间发生过这种事。



Brian Collins2 votes Show
In both the situations you mentioned the foreign forces moved their government headquarters to China.
I doubt that if Japan took China they would have moved their capital to Beijing and administrated everything from there.

在你提到的两种情况下,外国势力都将自己的政府总部搬到中国。
我怀疑如果日本人占领了中国,他们会迁都?#26412;?#28982;后从那里一匡天下。



Jim Kenyon43 votes Show
Kind of reminds me of "We are the Borg. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile."

这让我想起了“我们是博格。你们的种族将被同化。抵抗是没有意义的。”



Lynne Miles-Morillo23 votes Show
Funny answer but I had a serious internal response to this. I think that calling Manchurians and Mongols "foreign" is a suspiciously post-industrial projection of the idea of *nation* onto historical events where that concept does not necessarily belong.  Just saying.  "Chinese" is a construct. In the Yuan.  In the Qing.  And ESPECIALLY today.

有趣的回复,但是?#26434;?#36825;个,我有更严谨的答案。我想把满人和蒙古人称作”外国的“有把后工业时代国家的概念用在古代历史?#24405;?#20013;的嫌疑。而这种(国家)的概念(当时)并不存在。其实说来,华夏只是一种概念,在元朝如此,清朝如此,现代更是如此。



Walter Winston28 votes Show
Your basis of argument is flaw. The Mongolians and Manchurians conquered China and assimilated because:
1. They do not have strong culture/historical value of its own. They are nomad. Their language advancement is very limited.
2. They do not have governing system. Hence either they create one but they can't because they do not know how. No prior knowledge or people in their tribe who is smart enough in creating a new government system.
3. They do not have intention to conquer China and overwrite China culture. In fact they admire it.
Japanese on the other hand has all 3 elements to not accept Chinese culture.

你的论据本身就是有问题的。蒙古人和满人征服中国但被同化是因为:

1. 他们自身并没有?#30475;?#30340;文化/历史观。他们是?#25991;?#27665;族,而且语言的发展演变也非常的有限。
2. 他们没有政府系?#24120;?#20182;们也?#35805;?#27861;创建一套政府体系,因为他们根本不知?#26469;?#20309;处着手。没有经验可借用,部落里也没有如此大智慧的人能创造出一套新的政府系?#22330;?
3. 他们没有颠覆中原文化的意图,实际上他们仰慕中原文化。

但是,?#26434;?#20525;寇来说,他们具备这三方面的所有要素来颠覆中国文化。



Leah Ma15 votes Show
So true!  They always absorbed all their conquerers because they were obviously the superior culture AND because there were a heck of a lot more Chinese than there were conquerers.  The Japanese would indeed be speaking Chinese now--but we're all glad that didn't happen because that would have resulted in many more deaths of Chinese.

太对了!因为中国文化?#21028;?#20110;侵略者的文化、中国人比侵略者多很多,所以侵略者会被同化。日本人真的可能现在就说中文了--但是我们很高兴这个没有实现,不然结果就是(因为战争)有更多中国人死亡。



Melanie Reynolds2 votes Show
I have never heard an American say such a thing.   No doubt there are some Americans who might say it.  Actually  it seems to me China does not feature very much at all in the American's thoughts on WW2.

我从来没有听到任何美国人说过这样的话。可定会有一些美国人会讲这样的话。实际上,我觉得美国人并不认为中国在二战中发挥了很大的作用。



Guillermo Schwarz1 vote by Alexandr Nikitin
One question: I thought the Huns under Attila also conquered the whole of China.
Attila took several cities in the roman empire so most people think he conquered from all of China to almost all of Europe up to some parts France.
If I'm not mistaken it is pretty common nowdays to find people called Attila in Hungary... meaning the land of the Huns... meaning they stayed there to these days...

一个问题:我认为匈奴王带领匈奴人征服了整个中国。

匈奴王占领了罗马帝国的几个城市,所?#28304;?#22810;数人认为他征服了整个中国和?#20998;?#30340;大部分,甚至包括部分的法国。

如果我没有理解错的话,现在在匈牙利还是有人被称为匈奴王(应该现在是人名了吧)。。。意思是匈奴人的国度。。。表明他们曾经在那里待过。。。



Liu Hongtao(刘鸿韬)18 votes Show
This only works when the Conquered culture was much more well established and rooted than that of the Conquerers'. Japanese culture and society was already pretty well established and deeply rooted by the War.

只有被征服的文明?#26085;?#26381;者的文明更体?#21040;?#20840;,融于血脉?#21028;小?#25112;争已经健全了日本的文化和社会,令其扎根。



Mark Owens16 votes Show
I think it should be noted here that the "War of Resistance" didn't begin at Pearl Harbor.   The Chinese despite political divisions within the new Republic and a very limited industrial base did manage to resist Japanese aggression sufficient to push the Japanese into expanding the war .....and creating a situation that would end it with their surrender.  Once the USA was fully into the war the path West to Japan and Victory.....was smoothed by all the Japanese divisions STILL committed to China and Manchuria/Manchukuo.   Victory in Coalition warfare is a team effort.

我觉得应?#20204;?#35843;下,抵抗战争不是在珍珠港开始的。中国人抛开对新共和的不同政见,利用仅有的工业基础,成功抵抗日本入侵,以致于日本扩大战场,最终以投降收场。一旦美国全面参与战争,西线抵抗日本,同时日本还要应付中国和满洲/满洲国,所以胜利就轻而易举了。同盟国的胜利是团队合作。



Andrew Rei7 votes Show
This is a fascinating question. I see that a few commentors have mentioned that the Japanese would be speaking Chinese if they conquered China in WWII (LMAO).
One thing Fascist regimes (and yes the Japanese were Fascists before and during WWII) is to require the natives of another country to "assimilate" the conquering country's language during occupation. Many of the young people in the European countries that were "satellite" countries of the old Soviet unx don't realize that they're really speaking Russian because that's what the Soviets required of their older relatives/citizens when they rolled in.
There is however some history even in Asia where the assimilation of the counquering country's language was rejected by the natives after the conquerors were repelled: the Philippines. Yes the islands are named after the Spanish King who conquered them; but when the natives drove out the Spanish they kept the new name of the country and a few Spanish words but went back to speaking their native language Tagalog.
In my opinion the Japan-China situation could have gone either way after WWII. But only a racist American fool would say to the Chinese "if it weren't for us you'd be speaking Japanese". And that's sounds EXACTLY like something a radical Republican would say.

这真是一个有趣的问题。我看到有些评论提到:如果日本在二战时战胜了中国那么现在日本人都将说中文了(笑死爹了)。

法西斯政权(确实日本在二战前和二战期间是法西斯)占领某个国家后都会要求当地人学习占领国的语言?#21592;?#21516;化他们。原来东欧的许多苏联卫星国的年轻人一点也没意识到他们其实说的是俄语,因为这是苏联政府最开始进入当地时要求当地人/市民必须这么做的。

然而历史上即便是在亚洲也有占领国同化语言在占领国被击败后被抵制的例子:菲律宾。这个岛屿群是用当时征服他们的西班牙国王名?#32622;?#21517;的。当地人把西班牙人赶出去后依然使用着这个国名和一些西班牙语,但是他们还是说起?#35828;?#22320;原住民语言塔拉加族语。

在我看来日本二战后占领中国将会有几种可能性发生。但只有一个种族主义的美国佬会和中国人说:如果不是我们,你们现在就说日本语了。这听起来确实像一个激进的共和党人说的话。



David Jensen5 votes Show
Other examples:
The old man in Catch-22 who was talking with Nately about how Italy would always survive no matter how much it lost.
The Normans conquered England and were conquered culturally in return.

还有其他例子:
在《第22条军规》里,老人对内特利说,即使失去所有,意大利终会幸存。
?#24503;?#20154;征服了英格兰,却在文化上被征服回去。



Matt Espina4 votes Show
Worth mentioning that the Japanese already assimilated traditional Chinese characters ages ago; they call it Kanji.  Japanese who can't speak a lick of Chinese can still read all the Chinese signs when they go for tourism though simplified Chinese is a little different (and now the official Chinese language set). It isn't very hard for a Japanese native to pick that up either.

需要注意的是,日本人已经在多年之前就吸收了中国传统文化。他们称之为漢字(かんじkanji)。一点中文都不懂的日本人去中国旅游的时候还是可以懂中文的标识,虽然简体中文(中国官方语言)有点不一样。日本人学中文也不是很难。



Long Pham
You forgot the Liao and Jin dynasties founded respectively by the Khitans and the Jurchens. They did not occupy the entire China though only the northern part. The Southern Song dynasty continued to rule in the southern part until all were conquered by the Mongols.

你忘了契丹人的辽朝和女真人的金朝。他们没有征服整个中国,只是部分北方地区。南?#25105;?#30452;?#25345;文?#26041;直到蒙古征服了整个国家。



Joe Lee4 votes Show
I'm a Chinese but I don't exactly agree with this viewpoint. And I can give a counter example to support my point When Taiwan was occupied by Japan during1895-1945 when Taiwanese were forced to learn Japanese from childhood and was forbided to name their child with Chinese name. And many people even can't speak Chinese after liberation language is the carrier of a Nation culture if a national language went extinct can it still be considered they still remain their original culture. Not to mention many Chinese dressed like Japanese during that period such as Denghui Lee who was under the influence of Bushido.
And thanks god Japan was defeated eventually. As you know many big Chinese cities like Shanghai Beijing and Nanjing were controled by Japan even just before Japan declared surrender.
We need to thank America indeed I think at least they helped to accelerate the end of this invasion war.

我是中国人,但是我不同意这个观点。我要举个例子支持我的观点:1895-1945年日本?#25345;?#21488;湾,台湾人被?#21364;有?#23398;日语,不能给小孩起中文名。解放后,很多人不会说中文,语言是国家文化的载体,如果语言灭绝了,文化还可能是原生的文化吗?更不要说在那期间很多中国人打扮得像日本人,像李登辉,就深受武士道的影响。?#34892;?#19978;帝,日本最终被打败了。你知道,日本投?#30331;埃?#24456;多中国的大城市,上海、?#26412;?#21335;京都被征服了。

我们真心应该?#34892;?#32654;国,我认为他们至少帮助我们加速了侵华战争的结束。



Stephen Shi2 votes Show
Firstly I am Chinese.

首先,我是中国人。

I don't agree with you. The twice conquests have an common point. Comparing to Chinese, Mongolians and Manchurians were savage and uncultured civilization. At that time Chinese has high agriculture civilization. But in 1930s-40s Japanese industrial civilization was developper than Chinese.  Do you know Japan conquer  the three northeast provinces of China and Taiwan. Up to now many old people could still speak Japanese.

我不同意你的观点,这两次征服有一个共同点。和中国相比,蒙古人和满人是野蛮而未开化的文明,当时,中国有先进的农耕文明。但是在二十世纪三四十年代,日本的工业文明比中国发达。你知道日本占领了中国东三省和台湾吗?直到现在,很多年纪大的人仍然能说日语。



Peng-Fun Chang
>> In history China was conquered by foreign army twice

历史上,中国被外国的军队征服过两次。

Ancient China much like ancient everyone else didn’t have a well defined concept of ‘foreign’. So when you state that China had been conquered by foreign army twice the validity of the statement depends on what you count as foreign. The history of China has always been a history of ‘barbaric’ fringe players (from the perspective of the Han people the concept of which is itself a socio-historical construct) interacting and occasionally merging into the Han cultural sphere. Uprising of the Five Barbarians might as well be seen as yet another example of foreign invasion.

古代中国和古代的其他地方非常地像,它们没有对“外国”下一个明确的定义。因?#35828;?#20320;说中国被外国军队占领国两次时,这个说法正确性取决于你如何定义“外国”。中国的历史一直是一个边缘“野蛮”玩家(从汉人的观念来看这是个社会历史概念)与汉文化圈交流并?#32423;?#34701;入进去的历史。五胡?#19968;?#21487;能会被视为另一个外国入侵的例?#21360;?



Scott Rainey5 votes Show
I've only been to China for a few days all before the return of Hong Kong in 1997.  That brief exposure was sufficient to tell me that it was Hong Kong that was actually going to take over China.  I said so fairly often at the time.

在1997年香港回归之前,我只在中国待过几天。(但)那次短暂的接触就足以告诉我,香港的?#26041;?#25509;管中国。在那时我总这么说。

Look at pix of any Chinese City today vs 15 years ago. Now look at any pic of HK before 1997. 

?#21592;?#30475;看现在和15年前的?#25105;?#24231;中国城市的照片。现在再看看1997年以前的每一张香港的照片。

Japan became an industrial capitalist society between the Meiji Restoration and 1941.  CocaCola always wins.

日本在明治维新到1941年间变成了一个工业资本主义社会(国家)。可口可乐总是会赢。



Jason Tchai1 vote by Parker Zhang
I love that I can meet many chinese from China on Quora and grasp their perspectives on the world.

我很高兴能从 Quora上认识许多中国人,能了解他们的世界观。

Let's hope that Quora will always be accessible from inside China.

但愿(未来)在内地,Quora将一直是可登录的。

译者注:Quora,被戏称为美国版知乎,是一个问答SNS网站,由Facebook前雇员查理·切沃(Charlie Cheever)和亚当·安捷罗(Adam D' Angelo)于2009年6月创办。在2009年12月推出测试版,随后在2010年6月21日向公众开放。



Jordan Pugh2 votes Show
The word used to describe this phenomenon of chinese submission is sinofication I believe.

我认为,?#32654;?#25551;述屈服中国现象的词叫做中国化。



George Foss1 vote by Don Tan
If it wasn't for the Chinese holding 10 Japanese Armies at bay the US (which barely won the Pacific Campaign against three Japanese Armies spread out) would be speaking Japanese now eating Sushi and driving Japanese Cars. Wait just a minute 2 out of 3.

要不是中国人拖住了10支日本陆军,美国人(只赢了三支?#31449;?#30340;太平洋战役)现在将说日语,吃寿司,开日本汽车。等下,或许是两成。



Mark Chan1 vote by George Foss
Given the contribution by the Chinese in the war the Chinese could also tell the Americans "If it wasn't for us you'd be speaking Japanese". If Chinese surrendered and collaborated with the Japanese America will fall. Just look at Korean war - the Chinese fought the American to a standstill with basically no technology. Now what would happen if Industrailised Japan had all the resources and man power in China to fight the Americans? The Allied Victory was a team effort.

鉴于中国在二战中的贡献,中国人?#37096;?#20197;告诉美国人“要不是我们,你们早说日语了。”如果中国投降,并与日本合作,那美国就输了。看看朝鲜战争-中国没有任何?#38469;?#19978;的优势,就将美国打趴了。如果工业化的日本占有了中国所有的资源和人力,并?#28304;?#26469;对抗美国,会发生什么?盟军的胜利是团队合作的结果。



Subramanian Nagarajan
The japanese wanted a scorched earth policy in China. Was it really possible that anything Chinese will ever remain if that occurred?

倭寇想在中国实行三光政策(?#38599;?#25919;策),如果真那样,中国是否还能有任何东西能遗留下来?



Khanjan Damania
Did I read Manchurian? Are they people like Americans Europeans or Indians?
And here I thought Machurian was just Chinese delicacy hugely popular in India.
I feel sad at my current state of general knowledge right now.

我读到的是Manchurian(满洲人)这个?#20107;穡?#20182;们是像美国人?#20998;?#20154;印?#28909;?#19968;样的“人”吗?
我还以为Manchurian(满洲人)仅仅是一种在印度很流行的中国美食。
?#26434;?#25105;常识的匮乏,我感到很沮丧。



Abhishek Jain
And I just ate Chaomin with Manchurian. I wonder if my stomach is going to be a battlefield now. ;-)
Did I just make a racist joke?

我刚吃了炒面和Manchurian(满洲人),我怀疑我的胃是不是即将变成一个战场。

我刚是不是开了一个种族主义玩笑?


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